Whitney Wagner, Co-Founder of Refill Emporium (Interview 10/100)
Refill Emporium is a zero-waste store in the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan. St. Clair Shores, that was founded by two best friends and is now being passed along to another wonderful person that will undoubtedly take the mission of the store and run with it. Once again, it all starts with a dream and an idea with a little bit of courage to take the risk to make it happen. Starting with 12 products that they toted from one farmers market or pop up to another while making products in house to growing tenfold within a few years, the brains behind Refill Emporium are truly filling a void in their community.
Refill and zero waste stores are, as the names suggest, stores that focus solely on selling products without unnecessary waste. Think: plastic free products and packaging, compostable materials, or generally products without packaging entirely. Often these refill stores allow you to bring in a reusable container of your own, you weigh that container empty for a baseline, fill it with whatever product you choose (I’ve seen everything from laundry detergent, soap, household cleaners, and sunscreen). Some locations include groceries for you fill up on cereal, candy, beans, rice, pasta, nuts, etc. Some have container donation and cleaning programs for you to bring your empty glass jars and pump bottles that you’re no longer using for others to refill. If you want something a little newer and with a specific style, some sell containers that you can purchase. Often there are no-waste and reusable products like reusable paper towels (Refill Emporium sews their own), lotion or shampoo bars, reusable make up remover rounds, and other sustainable products (shout out to the leaders of sustainable brands that are typically carried in these types of stores).
Fueled by the belief that knowledge isn’t something to gatekeep, Whitney gives so much advice to anyone else interested in opening (or who already has opened) a local refill store, all those small business owners out there, and honestly all of us.
Invest in a chemistry degree
Manufacture your own unscented projects yourself if you can (it’ll give you some protection from the volatility of the rest of the world, give you more control over the ingredients, and will naturally provide a unique product that won’t be purchased anywhere else…um who doesn’t love an exclusive item??)
Procure from local vendors if you can
“Find a need. Fill a need.”
Get to know your customers. Like, really get to know them. Share your knowledge. Build relationships. And then allow that word of mouth to spread like the wildfire (but, you know, the good kind of wildfire)
Use transparency and your unique skills to your benefit! Let the people see how the sausage is made…or in her case, how the reusable paper towels are made.
Offer high quality products. Trust her. The ingredients make a difference. Don’t forget to take the time to explain why it makes such a difference. Knowledge is power, people.
Get to know those that also have a similar business model and be respectful of the boundaries and the market.
Are you an owner of a refill shop? If so, join the Zero Waste Refill Shop Facebook Groups with other owners and follow the Refill Collective on Instagram.
Of course, we also get into the importance of giving back to your community, both professionally and personally. It’s all about helping people out here in whatever way makes the most sense for you. Be thoughtful. Find the ways to marry your skills, what you have to offer, and your passions with ways to help others.
Shout outs to:
Shannon, Co-Founder of Refill Emporium
Hard Rock Stone Works in Sterling Heights, MI
Shelby Township Farmers Market (where it all started!)
JJ and his candle business: Feelin’ Wick’d Candles
Mentions | BioSite (with links to listen & more)
Transcript:
AM: Hey folks, thanks so much for coming to the Capitalism for Good Podcast. It's here where we'll focus on exploring how we both make and spend our dollars to benefit the greater good.
Folks, once again, so excited about this interview. It is with Whitney Wagner. She is a co-founder, owner. You'll hear more about it. She's in a little bit of a transition phase of a refill store called Refill Emporium located just north of Detroit and St. Clair Shores. They have an in-store brick and mortar. There's online shipping. There's also delivery if you live in the area. And she really takes us on the journey from when it was just an idea, two friends had, trying to figure out how it works in really evolving into this larger than life cool community that has been built in. It is so interesting to listen to. She is full of energy. She is full of advice. She is full of life. And it just was so amazing. So, if you are in the zero waste refill type of field, this is a great episode for you.
If you are also a small business owner or potential small business owner or leader, she's also got advice from you. We talk about really everything from the actual chemistry, science, logistics, technical part of owning a refill store, the economic impact of it, the economic impact of the community, and also what community give back means to her. I'm going to say it for the 100 millionth time.
This was an amazing interview. I loved every single second of it. Check out the show notes. I've got links to the store in the show notes. It's also in the company mentions page on the Patreon. Again, links to all of those things available as well. But this one's got it all. We got community, we've got education, we've got a challenge to the larger corporations and manufacturers of this world to see what they can actually do to minimize their environmental impact. And I just think it is so amazing.
I can't wait for you all to hear it. So enjoy. And will you start with just a high level overview of your experience in your career journey and how that led you to starting Refill Emporium?
WW: I don't think we have enough time for that. Well, I'll start off. Yes, my name is Whitney Wagner and I am currently the owner and operator of Refill Emporium in St. Clair Shores, Michigan, which is a local zero waste and refill shop.
So my overview of how I got there was nothing like that. It's not like I worked in, like these beautiful stories were here, like, I worked in nonprofit or my parents were environmental engineers. No, that is not my story. Although my mother was a hippie. I mean, so that helped.
AM: Same here.
WW: So I grew up with a very eco-conscious family. But my career journey, I started working actually at 18 in sales. I worked for Metro Detroit Deli Provision as a demonstrator, like Chip-in-cup kind of girl.
AM: Yeah.
WW: But higher level than that. Then I worked at Sears in Land's End, and I got immediately promoted to a manager within six months, and I switched over to the Sears side. I worked there for a while, and then I stopped working at Sears, and I went back to college. I bartended for a little bit, as everybody does. Yeah. Then I worked for a company that sold pretzels, fancy pretzels out of Wisconsin. I was their national sales manager, so I got to travel all over, and then I worked for Best Buy. I was a Verizon wireless expert. I was a front-end manager. I got promoted real quick there, and then my last job before I started Refill Emporium, I worked at Lowe's, and again, I was a front-end manager. So I have a lot of sales experience. Lots of sales experience because my mother, I talk a lot and people like to talk to me, so sales was what she sent me into.
But part of the reason I do this is the very last section of working at Lowe's. It was during the pandemic and there was no staffing. I just started there, and when you work in operations, you work both front-end and back-end, so you're supposed to be like a team together. They lost the back-end manager and I needed to fill in and help, but I was still learning how they ran things at Lowe's. I'm epileptic, so I was working like 14-hour shifts.
AM: Yeah.
WW: And it was really hard.
AM: Yeah, not ideal.
WW: Not ideal. So one day, I'm up on a ladder. I'm counting paint, and I'm like, something doesn't feel right, and I need to get down, and I was having breakthrough seizures. Just because I was working from like 3 o'clock in the morning, I would have to start to drive to get there by 4 to open the store, to help do the back ops, and then go do my front ops, and it was insane. It was really, really long. So I stopped working there, I talked with my neurologist, she's like, you just can't keep doing these high stress jobs, because there were periods of time where I would just have breakthrough seizures and it just was not working for me.
AM: Yeah.
WW: So I talked to a family friend and she's like, Whitney, if you could do anything, what would you do? And I'm like, so there's this place, well, there was this place that is now torn down. It was called Eastland Mall and it was an abandoned mall back during the pandemic. It used to be a beautiful mall and then it declined and then it got in foreclosure and everything. I would buy Eastland Mall and I would turn it into a beautiful recycling center for recycling and artists and like music and all these people could come together. It would be like this big community center.
She goes, that's so wonderful Whitney, but unless you're a secret millionaire, that's never going to happen. She's like, can we try again? I'm like, okay. I'm like, well, there's these places called refill shops. She's like, okay, start there. Okay. Look into that. I looked into that and I did some research about what refill shops do. Still had never been to one. Just looking into them, what they did. I actually tried to reach out to one and I will not name their name, but they did not respond to me and it made me very sad. It actually totally discouraged me because this person actually just, their refill shop had won an award and stuff and everything. And I'm like, oh, super sad. I really wanted them to reach out and it was okay.
But at the same time, my friend was working for a hospital. She had just had her baby, her first baby, my best friend in the entire world whose name is Shannon. And she was working in research and they were giving her a hard time about breastfeeding because I mean, like, let's shame women some more. Okay. You know, she would have to go stop to pump. Okay. And they were giving her a hard time about that. You know, she's going through postpartum depression. Okay. So she's not like the blues. And so that was taking a toll on her and I'm going through this. So I tell her my idea and I pitch it to her. Like, I think we should have a refill shop. And through our million years of friendship, she's always been the one that's like, hey, slow down, let's take a beat. Sounds a little crazy. She's like, I think this is a fantastic idea.
AM: Okay.
WW: And I'm like, okay. And we don't really talk any more about it. About a week goes by, she shows up to my house with a notebook and her little baby and she's like, let's do it. I'm like, what are we doing? She's like, oh, we're starting a business. I'm like, I wasn't super serious. She's like, I was super serious. So she quits her job, okay? I quit my job and we're like, let's go Before you even like jumped it, like just from the get-go, job quit. This is what we're doing.
Yeah. We didn't even have an LLC yet or anything like that. So from January of 2021 to June of 2021, all we did was research, how do you start a business?
AM: Yeah.
WW: That's all we did. So how do you get an LLC? Like what taxes? So since we were doing it, like what kind of taxes are we going to need to pay? Stuff like that. Since it's a refill shop, what kind of labeling laws do we need to comply with? What safety concerns for chemical interactions for allergies? Are there laws? What do we need to do? This is uncharted territory. It's not like you can go buy a book, how to open up a bakery or even throw it into now AI. There wasn't even really AI back then. There was no way, nobody to help us. So we get an idea from another refill shop to not do a brick and mortar first that we're going to just test it out, and we're going to just do pop-ups at our local farmers markets and stuff like that in the surrounding Metro Detroit area, which we are very fortunate because Metro Detroit is super drivable quickly because of our expressways.
AM: Okay. That's not super common with a major metropolitan area, at least in my experience.
WW: So for example, I live in a city called St. Clair Shores. If I jump on the freeway, which is literally right next to my house, in 15 minutes, I can be seeing a Tigers game if I go down to Detroit. Yeah. Okay. Or in 20 minutes, I can be in farms.
AM: Okay.
WW: Like milk and a cow. So it depends on which way I want to go. Okay. If I go west, I can be doing all types of, there's cool little city events and the Detroit Zoo and all types of stuff. So there's so much to do. The freeway makes everything so quickly accessible because we have the best freeways. We really are the Motor City. But anyway, I digress. So we did a bunch of farmers markets and pop-ups. So our very first one was in June. We did the Shelby Township Farmers Market, which is about 25 minutes from us. And we got a great response. We probably only had 12 liquid products that we did. I don't think we had liquid cleaning products yet. It was primarily like hand-sewn. Like in everything we were making ourselves or getting private labeled for us. Shannon was sewing like our reusable paper towels and napkins and sponges. This was like all of us just doing it. So we did that one, St. Clair Shores, and a couple other ones. And by December of that year, we were getting so many people asking us like, hey, do you have this? Do you have this? Do you have this? I'm like, do you understand we're putting this all in the back of an Equinox and popping it up in a 10 by 10 tent? And then having to unload it and put it back in like my house.
And we needed a place. So in November of 2021, we signed a lease. January 2022, we opened Brick and Mortar. And nobody would give us a lease except my landlord. And it's not because we didn't have credit. It's not because we didn't have the money or the funds. Nobody liked the concept. It would be yeah, I'm looking to just, I want to just look at this space. And you're like, okay, well, what are you doing? And I would explain the concept and they'd be like, click. So it wasn't until I got to my landlord that he said, wow, I think this is a great idea. I think this is amazing for you girls. Let me show you some spaces. And he is the first person to tell you that he is not Mr. Environmental, like at all, but him and his mom are our landlords and they have been wonderful to us. They support our dreams. They send us business. I literally couldn't say nicer things about the cuter family. They are so nice. We've been there for three and a half years and we have well over 120 products.
AM: Oh my gosh. And you started with 12?
WW: Yeah. If you would have been there on opening day in our shop, you would have been like, this is going to bust.
AM: Are you still making all of them on your own?
WW: God no.
AM: Okay. Okay.
WW: God no. That went out like heart. The only reason that Shannon and I were able to do that, I have a really strong sales background. I know how to run things with like sales, customer communication, marketing, things like that. Shannon has a degree in science from Wayne State. So she has a bio degree and she also has a lot of knowledge in chemistry. So like she made sure we didn't kill people.
AM: Yeah.
WW: She'd be like reading something and she'd be like, yeah, we can't do that because there's a lot of misinformation out there on the internet. But Shannon was really, really good at that and understanding the chemical process. So my first advice to anybody wanting to open up a refill shop, go get a degree in chemistry. So while you might want to get an environmental degree, which is cool, which I would say make that actually like a secondary degree or an associate's, go get a degree in chemistry if you really want to do something. Chemistry is the way to go because that had, I mean, honestly, that has saved us more times than I'd care to admit, but like that was really helpful in the beginning. So three and a half years brick and mortar, and that's where we're at now.
Shannon did leave in January to be a mom full time. So I am now the only owner, but she was a huge part of and still is a huge part of Refill Emporium, and is still my very best friend till this day.
AM: Love that so much. There's something about it, and maybe it's just from my personal experience and just coming off of a really great weekend with a bunch of women, but there's something so cool about what women can do when they can lift each other up and put their minds to something. I just think it's absolutely amazing, and I love hearing about that. So I wanna know, when you were starting, let's just talk about the idea concept, and there weren't a lot of other places out there. You reach out to one, they don't respond to you. So I'm assuming that that means there weren't any other refill or zero waste shops in your Detroit metro area, is that right?
WW: There was. So the one that I reached out to actually was not in my area.
AM: Okay.
WW: They were actually out of state, and I reached out to them, like I said, because they had received a huge award, and they're still a big player in the refill game. And I respect their hustle, I do.
AM: Yeah.
WW: Right before we did open, and I encourage, highly encourage, anybody who's opening a refill shop to do this, and it's happened to me multiple times, go and visit the closest refill shop to where you're thinking about opening. Also, be respectful of boundaries. Refill shops, we're not a coffee shop. It's not like, oh, we need two coffee shops within a mile radius because people are caffeine addicts. There are only so many companies that are willing to sell in bulk quantities of things. So, you can't have, for example, St. Clair Shores has, I think we have 600,000 people or something like that, but it's only six miles long and like three miles wide. So I'm on the south end. If there was one on the north end, it wouldn't work because it would be, you're selling it for 40 cents an ounce, you're selling it for 45 cents an ounce, da da da da da da. And it would just be like that.
AM: Right, right, right.
WW: So my next closest one is about 15 minutes west. Again, because of the way Metro Detroit is set up, that's, well, you're like 15 minutes, that's really close. It's not. So you have to be aware of your area and how things would play out. You know your city. And then the other one is like 45 minutes south. So we visited one. It was in Ann Arbor called BYOC. The owner has now changed. It does have a different owner, but the original owner was a girl named Emma. She was a graduate of U of M, and Shannon and I go in. And we were just straight up on us.
We're like, hi, we are opening up a refill shop, not anywhere near you. And I mean, just be really, because we were nervous. We're like, should we tell her? Should we not? And we're like, no, we should just, we should just tell her. And cause we're like, what if she won't tell us anything? And we're like, this is what we're doing. Do you have any information? What will you tell us?
And she was like, oh yeah, I'll tell you whatever you want to know. And it was because of the fact, and this is why I say this again, be respectful of those boundaries so you both can co-exist. Emma was so gracious. She told us everything we wanted to know. And even once we started, if I needed something, I was like, oh my God, Emma, I don't know what to do. She'd be like, oh, it's okay. I've been through this before. There are also another great tool. If you're a refill shop owner and you haven't already joined the Zero Waste Shop Owners Facebook groups, there are specifically four refill shop owners. Those have been life-saving. Refill Collective, I believe it is, on Instagram, also connect refill shops together and stuff. But I have not met anybody, except for the one that ghosted me, who does not want to help somebody else.
And MI-fillosophy opened in Plymouth. The owner's name is Ashby. She came to me and she was like, hi, my name's Ashby. I'm thinking about opening up a refill shop. And she did the same thing. Not anywhere near you. Got any advice? I'm like, totally. And another cool thing that at least I try to do is, I want to make friends within the community. So if I'm driving through a city or something like that, which the funniest thing is, I've been to the ones further away than the ones that are like 15 minutes from me. Because we're just, we're working.
AM: Yeah.
WW: Like I never get to go there. I know the owners, but have I got to actually go there? No.
AM: Yeah.
WW: When I'm driving through a city or I'm like, I'm going on vacation or something like that, I make it a point to stop there, say, hi, my name is Whitney. See what's different. Because there's no two refill shops that are the same. Their policies are not the same. I have a really strict bottle policy. We do have donated containers. You are free to use them. You can only use our donated containers on cleaning products. You cannot use them on body products.
On body products, you either have to bring your own or you have to purchase one up front. It's best to keep people safe. I don't allow any nut containers in my store. I don't allow anything from shellfish or anything like that. Nothing from bleach, nothing from ammonia. Or if I just think it's really funky for some reason, and I think it could have a contaminant in it, I'm like, we're not playing this game. And I just say no. And I literally tell people the biggest thing you need to, if you are a person that will buckle under pressure, you probably shouldn't be a refill shop owner. You need to be able to say no and firmly.
AM: Yeah.
WW: And that's a full sentence. Like everybody needs to know in lots of situations, no is a full sentence.
AM: Yeah, yeah.
WW: Just know. And I give a lot. I give great deals and all types of stuff. So I'm a very giving person, but I will not compromise somebody's safety. I just won't do it.
AM: Yeah. And I imagine the liability as well. Should someone get sick because something's not labeled or not cleaned or whatever that is, that's something that, especially being a new startup or any kind of business owner, you can't deal with that on top of the safety issue.
WW: Yeah. Correct.
AM: And I'm sure just from a chemical perspective, if you're running a refill shop, you're probably really looking at your ingredients and really paying attention to people's reactions and all of those kinds of things. And then harsh chemicals, I imagine, not really a pro within here. Am I right about that?
WW: I mean, yes, but sometimes... So you assume always it's just going to be your harsh chemicals.
AM: Yeah.
WW: But sometimes something is mixing vinegar with something because everybody wants to play with vinegar and everybody wants to play with hydrogen peroxide. If you mix vinegar and bleach together, you get a gas. You can't mix those two things together. So you just can't, like, you can't mix certain things together. And people just have to be really mindful of what they're doing.
AM: Okay.
WW: And they're like, but it's natural, but it's natural. Okay. Lots of things are natural, okay, that, like, you shouldn't… Like, you can't wash a dog in peppermint. They can do lemongrass. They can do lemongrass. They can do lavender. They can't do peppermint. The mint is not great for dogs. So being careful of, like, essential oils around animals and stuff, people are like, well, essential oils are way safer than fragrance oils. Essential oils are not regulated, okay? But people are like, well, I use only therapeutic grade. Therapeutic grade essential oils, that term is a marketing term. So you can use your MLM oils all you want. It doesn't mean anything. Okay, so unless they're getting third party tested, it means nothing.
AM: Again, this is why you need a chemistry degree. You need an expert in those things because there's so much information. And if you're not an expert in that field, you're not gonna know any of those things. I grew up with so many dogs. This is the first time in my entire life I've ever heard no peppermint for dogs.
WW: You shouldn't. There's, I mean, literally, there's a lot of stuff. If you're gonna wash your dog in anything, the safest thing to do is either unscented or like lemongrass. So if you walk through a pet store, I have two Australian shepherds. One, the week of my wedding, we got her groomed and she came back five days later with this massive rash on her because they either put something on her or they use dirty tools on her. So I don't send any of my dogs to the groomers anymore. So I'm like a home groom and I'm grooming Aussies.
AM: Yeah, that's a lot of fur there and a lot of movement.
WW: It's a lot of fur. We spend a lot of time outside. So our dog wash, the only dog wash I will use is Yaya Maria's. They sell it in unscented and they sell it in lavender. That's the only thing that goes on my dog. And that is a Michigan made product. It is fantastic. And it will actually clean your dog. But like when you walk down pet aisles, they're like, oh, it's Burt's Bees, banana, oatmeal, la la la la la. And then you flip the bottle over and it's got so much in it. And you're like, we don't need any of this. Like none of this at all. So people are wondering why they're getting like skin reactions and all types of stuff. And I have had a lot of customers that specifically come to me because I carry a ton of unscented products, okay? So if I was talking to somebody who's opening a refill shop and they're like, well, what scent should I carry?
Always start with unscented and then start listening to your customer base, because the majority of people want quality unscented products. Just quality unscented products. Most people will be like, yeah, I'm fine with, I'm totally fine with unscented. And I mean, if you're gonna do a scented product, start with some basics and then get it experimental from there. And that's how we start at the shop. We start it with basic product and then we listen to the customer. Don't carbon copy another store and think that's gonna work wherever you are. You know, I'm up here in Michigan. What I sell in Michigan might not be number one sellers in Tennessee or Texas or wherever.
AM: Yeah.
WW: It's different hotel, it's different needs. And even let's say when open multiple locations, I still necessarily wouldn't carry the same things because I want my customers to tell me what they're looking for, what needs are being met in that area.
AM: Yeah. Is that part of why you all evolved from creating some of your products to actually like purchasing and pulling in wholesale? Was that a part of that evolution?
WW: So actually the biggest thing was probably time. So when you're building a business, your first three years, you are literally just building the brand, getting it up, maintaining customers. So that big portion was just Shannon and I getting it off the ground, getting it known, and explaining to people exactly what we do. Now, I think we'd be at a point where we could manufacture more. We still manufacture. It's funny, we started with about 12 products. We still manufacture about 12 products.
AM: Are they the same 12?
WW: No, they're not. I really think that all refill shops should try to manufacture some stuff. There are some things that have great profit margins, you do not need to purchase, that your customers would love. A simple example, you could make quality lotion bars. They can be scented, they can be unscented, you can put them in a fun shape, you can put them in a little tin and slap a label on them. There's great recipes out there. You can play around with it and tailor it to, again, your customers and they're waterless. So it's not like they have a short shelf life or something. So I will tell you, figuring out how to make a great lotion bar, all refill shops, everybody should be making in-house lotion bars. They're simple and a great profit merchant. Yeah.
AM: Does that also is something that I'm sure so many of us are thinking about, I especially am, is the volatility of America and imports and taxes and pricing and all of those kinds of things right now. Do you think that having an in-house manufacturer increases your chance of stability there?
WW: Yes, I know it does. I will tell you that everything that I make is way more profitable for me versus anything I purchase. I've had to change vendors because of changes in their pricing. I will also say developing good vendor relations is essential. I mentioned the Yaya Maria dog wash. So we carry their dish soap, their hand soap and their body wash. They're a Michigan based company. They were our very first company that we worked with. That was something that we didn't make. We still work with them till this day. The owner, his name is Andy. We have an excellent vendor relationship with him. So sometimes we will do pickups, sometimes he'll ship to us. But having that good relationship, it really is important because if I, some reason somebody comes in and buys me out of all the dish soap, and I need it the next day or something, as long as he's got it in stock, I can go pick it up. I can get it shipped and then I'm not, or like and he'll ship it to me and I'm not paying, like it's express shipping.
Like he does like really good things because, you know, I'm local. So that's why I'm saying have good relationships with local vendors, okay? And also it's cutting down on your carbon footprint.
You might have the ability to pick up. I work with Tiani in Dexter, Michigan for my Castile soap and some of my lotion. My in-laws live on the way to Dexter. So if I can ever stop and pick up, it's great or she'll come up here when she's in Detroit. So having those good relationships are so crucial. And you never know sometimes if you're making something and that person has like a little shop of their own, like a boutique or something, maybe you can get your products in there and do a pop-up or vice versa.
Make good local vendor relationships or maybe you can even set up better payment plans and do things like consignment. So I have a couple of people that are on consignment because they're local and I pay them out every 90 days and they're fine with it. So I just track what they sell and it actually, their products even sell better because they're local, okay? And I can get custom orders for people then too, because if somebody's like, oh, well, I really like this. Do you think she could do it in this? I'm like, you know what, let me find out. And I can call.
And another benefit of making things in house. So if you are creative in some way, when my shop is completely open concept, there is no wall. So if I'm making something, you see me making it. This weekend, I was making towels and I ended up making multiple custom orders because people kept seeing me make them for people and then they wanted their own. So that's all that kept happening on Saturday. So I was just surging away. I'm like, yeah, sure. They're like, oh, can I have this? I'm like pulling fabric out from the back. So if you have a skill, hone in on it, see if that can tie in. Obviously, you're into this environmental stuff. So maybe you've never been, I'm not artsy at all. I'm not crafty, but I figured out what I could do and what I couldn't do. Like I'm terrible at sewing. I can't sew. So Shannon would always have to sew things, but I'm amazing at surging. So I can make reusable paper towels all day long.
AM: There you go. You find your skills to use them.
WW: I found my skill because it's not the same. So don't ever think you can't do something. Just figure out what is in your skill set. If you can crochet or macrame, people love classes. And because you're the one teaching it, that's going to also increase your profit margin. People want to have a nice night out that doesn't cost a lot of money and they're leaving with something, do that.
AM: Yeah. That's also such an interesting take on scaling a business. Like if you started with 12 products and you've scaled to, I forget the number you said.
WW: Like about 120.
AM: But if you're focusing on those local things that clearly there's an interest and a need within your community, it's not scaling in terms of opening up multiple other shops or scaling in terms of larger bulk from one vendor, one manufacturer. You're scaling in terms of the unique things that you've found within your community of what your customers want.
WW: My only goal is to provide the absolute best refill shop within the city of St. Clair Shores right now because that's what I can do. There was a need, I filled it. I can't provide them with everything. My first thing before I'm ever going to, and this should be everybody's goal. While we all want to make money, your first thing is you should be trying to educate your customer. You should be trying to educate them. For me, if somebody comes in and they're like, wow, I'm really overwhelmed. I don't know where to start. You need to say, hey, it's okay. I'm here to help you. You are the expert. If you can't say you're an expert, then you need to find the education and fill in your gaps. What don't you know? Because that person is coming to you lost and in need of guidance. So you're supposed to say, hey, it's okay. Calm down. I got you. Welcome to my house. It's fine. I got you. What are you here for? Well, I heard about your shop and I'm not really sure what to do. What do you think you want to do? Well, maybe get some hand soap. Okay, cool. Then tell them how they can even save money on hand soap. By putting it, I let people donate Bath and Body Works foaming hand soap pumps. We're going to be like, okay, cool. Let's just get some hand soap today. Yeah.
You're only going to fill it up a quarter of the way, and then you're going to fill it up the rest of the way with water. They're going to walk out with $1.35 a soap. Maybe that day your sale was only $1.35. You're like, okay, well, that was a bust. But while they were there walking around, you're going to educate them about the other things and how they can. Best part is they can always just try a little bit, see if they like it, come back and get more. Tell them about their store. I guarantee you within, I would say, two weeks, they're going to be back with bottles, getting more. And you created a customer for life, which is the goal, and they're going to go tell a friend.
AM: I was just going to say, and they're telling everyone that they see, hey, also, you got to go there.
WW: Yep, that is the key. And people are like, well, what's the best way to market? Do I need to, what's the best way? First of all, I am terrible straight up at social media when it comes to actually doing it. Like, being the personality, fine, but the actual doing it, bleh, okay? I do not have a million followers or anything like that, not even close.
AM: I will say, though, I found you. I live in Louisville, Kentucky, and I found you.
WW: I appreciate it. But what I will say is one of the best ways to market, and like, in my city, people are like, yeah, I know Whitney, she owns Refill Emporium. Totally, because word of mouth is huge, okay?
WW: Everybody's like, and have something catchy like mine. I should have replaced my glasses ages ago and gotten contacts. I really need to update this. But everybody's like, no, Whitney's the girl with the glasses. 100 percent.
AM: Right, right.
WW: What's your niche? Okay. We have a teal shop, and I'm the girl that walks around with the glasses.
AM: Yeah.
WW: And it works for me.
AM: Oh my gosh, I love that so much. I also, okay, so in thinking about, you are just like a wealth of knowledge and advice for all of these business owners. But I also think there's a piece of it that I think can translate to so many different types of businesses and just like people in general. And I keep in my brain as you're talking, going back to the stress of like the jobs that you had before that instigated this switch. And then you're telling me about how you and Shannon were manufacturing products and you're starting these things. You're this tiny little duo that are wearing 17 gajillion hats. And I won't believe for a second any small business owner that tells me that it's not stressful. So what is the difference in that stress between what you're doing now and what you're doing before?
WW: I love that question. So first of all, I don't have anybody yelling at me. OK, it is not a toxic environment. And it's not even being like, oh, in this mean age. In the, since I was 18, I had some good bosses.
AM: Right.
WW: OK. But I had other people who made it such a toxic place to be that I would come home and I would put my hands in my head and just be like, why? OK. Also, I wasn't making a difference.
AM: Right.
WW: Now, was I making great money? Like great money? Yeah, absolutely. All day. I mean, especially for my age at the time, being in my 20s.
AM: Yeah.
WW: OK. I was like, whoa. OK. If I would have stayed on that path, I mean, great. OK. I wasn't doing anything to help other people. Yeah. I couldn't want if I would have died at any point then. OK. It would have said Whitney worked in sales. Period. OK. I didn't do anything to help my fellow person. I wasn't a better person.
AM: OK.
WW: Yeah. I can say with confidence, I am selling my business. I've essentially sold my business.
AM: OK.
WW: Yeah. I can say in the past four years, I have helped so many people. Yeah. OK. And made a difference in my community, the community that I grew up in for 34 years, that the whole point of starting Refill Emporium was to give back to the city of St. Clair Shores. Shannon and I were raised here. She's got two little girls. They should have a good chance to be able to ride their bikes in a clean city with clean water and a fresh lake and things like that. They shouldn't have these problems that they're facing today.
AM: OK.
WW: They shouldn't have that. OK. I can say that I've talked to people, that I've educated people, that I've changed something. OK. Am I perfect? Absolutely not.
AM: Yeah.
WW: 100 percent no. I have plastic bags in my house. I drank from a McDonald's straw the other day because I wanted that Coca-Cola because it tastes good. OK. I did. All right. But you just have to know that you should do something to make somebody's day a little bit better every day, just a little bit. OK. And for me, Refill Emporium was that gateway to propel me to be a better person. And I will say in my 30s, I am the best version of myself that I can be now. If I were, I'm sitting in my house right now, and if a car comes in and crashes and kills me right now, OK, which I don't want to happen, OK, knock on wood, I'm OK with that because I did everything that I was supposed to do. I've made a difference and I've talked to some wonderful people like you, Andrea. We got to meet because of this. That's so cool. Yeah, that is so freaking cool. Look at the way that Refill shops and just like connect each other. That's amazing. You're going to get to save plastic from going into the environment. That's amazing. It's so cool.
AM: And like that community piece, like I mean, my brain's going a million different directions. I can't wait for you to hear the woman that I interviewed right before. Have you heard of Plaine Products?
WW: I have.
AM: So Lindsay from Plaine Products, she, her like big thing was like, you know, there are so many businesses. And once again, I'm going to make a comment that's a sweeping generality here. And it's, I know that there's an exception to every role and I'm not trying to put everyone in a bucket, but there is something that's really cool in you and I and Lindsay and everyone within our community is like proof of it that you've got these big giant businesses mostly run by men that are giant profit margins, really fancy, shiny things, all of the stuff. And then you have these really cool businesses run by women who are addressing the problems in our communities and that are building people up and like not, it's not just, it's not just money, it's not just products, it's not these things, it's everything all together. You're not contributing to a toxic work environment, you're helping build people up and give them career growth and all of these things. And if you're okay with it, I'd love to have you talk a little bit also about the transition of you selling your business and like your philosophy on that that handoff training, because I think that that's another perfect example of using business to do good in the world there.
WW: Yeah, so I'm not going to release who I'm right, who I'm selling it to as of right now, just because we are still going through some paperwork and stuff. But the person I'm releasing it to, she works for an, it is another woman. She is fantastic. The reason I am selling it is so kind of going back and forward at the same time. It is a lot to run a business. It is, it is a lot. It is not that I can't handle the business, I can't be everybody's everything all at once. I have built Refill Emporium into this beautiful, beautiful thing, but I have so many things going on outside that if I try to do both, one of them will not survive.
AM: Right.
WW: So I'm handing it to a person who I believe values the same things I do. While they have not ran a refill shop, I am going to give them all of the information I have and say, go forth and they will have access to me because it was my baby that I built with my best friend. So I really think that because of her background, she is an excellent candidate to continue on the mission that Refill Emporium has.
One of the things that I think when we're talking about also missions at the same time, our mission at Refill Emporium is that sustainability should be accessible and affordable for all. St. Clair Shores does have a wealthy patch and would be considered middle class. However, there are definitely a good chunk of people who are below the poverty line. At one point, I was a kid on food stamps, all of those things. My house burnt down when I was seven. So I've been there, done that. I do not think just because of your income status, that that should not get you good quality clean products. So sometimes the reasons I will not work with a company, regardless of it's a big business or a small business, I do believe some of these small businesses that, regardless if they're not green washed, as far as what's in their products, I do believe just because I do know how to make products, that they are way overpriced, and therefore I will not bring them in, because I cannot make them accessible for everybody.
AM: Yeah, yeah.
WW: I absolutely cannot. Now, do I bring in like dollar store soap? No. In the future, to make my mission better, I would love for a company like P&G, because they're like, oh, we're green and stuff like that. Okay. Well, then put your money where your mouth is. Yeah. Then do it. Clean up the products, lower them down, make them accessible to refill shops, and I'll let you refill your Don all day, because you don't need to be selling it in jugs at Costco. I'll let you refill your Don. Let's do it. Make it accessible to me.
AM: Yeah.
WW: So that would be like my challenge to bigger companies. If you want to do your green initiative that you need to do to make your board members happy, make it accessible to places like me.
AM: Yeah.
WW: Okay. Close your Burt's Bees line. We don't want it.
AM: Yeah.
WW: Okay. Clean it up.
AM: Yeah.
WW: Okay. Make it small business accessible. Have P&G small business. Really clean it up. Cut your crap.
AM: Yeah.
WW: That's pardon mouth. But really, that's really how I feel about it.
AM: Yeah. I also just keep going back to community, and when you and I talked last week also, when you were talking about how you're in this network of other business owners and shop owners, all those things, it's so important to, one, take care of your community, which you're doing by having the shop that's filling this need and this void within your actual community, giving them something that's gonna help them. Like, if there's more money in their pockets and there'll be hopefully less poverty, even if it's just a dollar at a time, but it's also the larger community of the people that you're working with and maybe taking a little bit of stress off of their plate by being like, here, here's a little, you know, learn from my mistake that I made or that I learned the hard way or whatever.
And just like, again, I'm gonna go back to lifting each other up. And this is a little bit of a leading question because you and I have talked about this before, but like personally for you, what's the importance of community and community give back and like really having a purpose-driven company? Like what is that part for you?
WW: I think you should find what works for you. So I love that my business is always giving back to the community in a way, because even if I'm making a sale, they're using less plastic, so it gives back to the community, that's cool. But people sometimes think that like giving back is like forceful. You have to do this, or you're a bad person if you don't. But giving back can be really fun. Believe it or not, a lot of community events now are like an, it's an event, and it's actually like, yeah, it's for charity, but something else is going on.
So I believe, again, you know, do something like what you're passionate about. So recently, this ties back to a last year story, but a this year story, so it's like that. So I have a nephew, his name is JJ, and he was born with some spinal conditions. And last year, he needed major surgeries done. And the only place that was able to do it, he wasn't able to get them done in Michigan, was New York, because he was going to have to be there for like three months. It was a long, long process, which he's doing much better now, and we are so grateful that everything went the way he did, like it did for him. It was great. But it was a lot of medical expenses for his family. So his mom works for Hard Rock Stone Works in Sterling Heights, and then with iCare of Michigan, they put on an event and it was really cool. It was a cook-off.
So my husband and I, we cook a lot. So again, finding something that you're passionate about. We got to do this cook-off event and iCare, they help families that need one-time assistance. So in this case, it was JJ's medical bills. It was really amazing. It was a huge event. There was raffles and stuff, and so people got to eat and come together. It was just a really cool way to see the community come together and be there and just want to be in support of somebody who's going to need something. But iCare of Michigan was great. Hard Rock was great. They were amazing for putting this on and it was so helpful to the family. But finding something that you like and then doing that for your community service is the best thing to do.
So if you're really passionate about this was a really good one too, basketball. There was a March Madness thing that was local in our town. It was like, hey, come and just watch March Madness and buy a ticket to watch March Madness, and we're going to have raffles and beer and stuff like that. The money was going to domestic violence. So I think if you want to get involved in your community and you want to give back. We ended up getting involved with iCare because of my nephew. That's how we did because we did the same event this year just last week. I think you just need to find what vibes for you. If you're like, I love listening to music, put in listening to music events for charity near me or music events for charity. Maybe it's movies or whatever. I guarantee you, nowadays there's something. Because I am literally doing charity events all the time. People walk in and be like, will you donate to this charity? Of course I'm going to. I have a golf outing that I'm donating sunscreen to.
AM: Yeah.
WW: So find out what it is and just be a part of it. Either go to the event if you can and then you can actually make a day out of it. Take your partner, take your kids depending on what it is, or just give your time. Sometimes they just need volunteers just to clean up. If you're like, look, I have no money. Not a lot of people have a ton of extra cash right now. That's fine. Just simply give your money and instead of giving your money, just give your time and say, hey, can I be a part of cleanup crew? If you're really artsy, be like, could I make a banner or flyers? Maybe you have a subscription to Canva and you're really good with that. So those are the things that I think of ways to benefit your community. It doesn't always have to be money. It could just be your time. It could be a special skill you have. I think that's a great way to get involved with your community.
So iCare was so helpful. You know, so if you live in Michigan, I would say please get involved with iCare in some way, but find what works for you.
AM: Yeah. And you know what? If that's not a through line for what you've talked about in starting Refill Emporium, like, I don't know what is. Just like find your skills, your passion, the things that you know about and then the gap in your community and link them up and see what you can do with it there.
WW: Yeah, that works for anything.
AM: Yeah.
WW: So it's not just about any small business. If you want to start something, it is the see a need, fill a need. Take your passion, see the need, fill the need, and run with it. Don't let anybody stop you because I will tell you when Shannon and I started this, so many people were like, no. It's not like we started this with a ton of money. We started this with no money. We slowly built this. It is entirely possible. I will say resources that I don't think are helpful, that people are like, oh, you should totally use this. The SBA.gov is not helpful. It is a terrible website. I don't find it helpful. Find other websites.
AM: Yeah, for sure. In kind of also that spirit of community and skills and looking out about what's going on in the world, my last question for everyone is, who's another business or leader that you see out there doing things the right way that you think deserves a shout out?
WW: So I did give my one to iCare. I definitely think that they are fantastic in Hard Rock Stone Works and Sterling Heights. Those two people are absolutely amazing. So one is the non-profit and Hard Rock Stone Works. They do Tile and Granite and they do a lot of events for charity. So and they do like granite. So if you need your granite done in Michigan, go to see them. But they're a for-profit company that does a lot for charity. So that's why I like them.
But my other one, so we were talking about women and how we have all of these women, small business owners that are like doing the actual work.
AM: Right.
WW: So three years ago, I met a fantastic person and her name is Pam and she owns GVST Wellness in St. Clair Shores. And it's not just a one-type business, it is a multifaceted business and it stands for Good Vibe Sister Tribe, GVST does. And it's not like you just go there to get like one thing, like you can go for yoga, you can go for a massage, you can go for meditation and breath work, you can go sometimes there will be like kids exercise class, sometimes there will be tarot reading. But it's all based around women and she connects women in the most fantastic way.
AM: Yeah.
WW: And it's super cool. Anytime somebody is new to the shores or they're looking for more wellness connections, I'm like, have you met Pam? Okay. And they're like, do I need to meet Pam? I'm like, you need to meet Pam. So she is not the person teaching the yoga, doing all that. That is not her. She's literally just directing this group of women and getting them together, getting them employed, and helping them build their own brands.
AM: Yeah.
WW: It is fantastic. Okay. This girl, she's a mom and she's like crushing it in business. Okay. I think she's fantastic. She has the biggest personality, but I think that there should be more places like this that Pam operates because you feel very safe there as a woman and she's just taking all these different things and that are like her vibe and that are other women's vibe and being like, yeah, you can do it all in one place.
AM: Yeah.
WW: Okay. You don't have to go here, here, here, here, here. She offers memberships and it's fantastic and she's like, she's been in business as long as I have and she's grown it and it's wonderful and she makes it so affordable, like so affordable and so easy and she does beautiful collaborations. The way that she just makes you feel at ease and welcome, I think everybody should do that.
AM: Yeah.
WW: But like having a business model, that's not just like one thing that layers multiple things that women actually need. I love.
AM: Yeah.
WW: It is so cool.
AM: I love that so much. Shout out to Pam and Good Vibes Sister Tribe.
WW: GVST Wellness. It's great.
AM: Amazing. I love that so much and I love talking to you, Whitney. I could do this for a gajillion hours. You are in such a cool transition here with selling your business and handing it off. I'm sure if I have learned anything about you in the past couple of hours and whenever we talked before, you're going to think of another idea and you're going to tackle something else cool. I just love it so much. I wish you all the best and I can't thank you enough for your time and your energy and your knowledge and all of your advice and everything.
WW: That was really, really kind. Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure to speak with you. Thank you so much for inviting me. This was awesome. This was so cool. Thank you so much. I hope that I get to do this again with you in some other fashion or we get to meet up in person.
AM: Yes. Oh my gosh.
WW: Yes.
AM: Folks, thanks so much for listening to the Capitalism for Good Project. Just a quick reminder that this project is supported through patreon.com/capitalism for Good. Their weekly Between the Interviews episodes, early releases of interviews, March and other bonuses for those that subscribe through the Patreon. Support allows for this project to continue to move forward without the potential bias of traditional ads. Thank you so much for anyone that's already in that community and for anyone considering joining. As always, please let me know what you think.
And also if you have any recommendations for leaders that you see out there making a positive impact on their internal and external communities, I would love to shine a spotlight on your favorite folks.
Alright, that's enough. Let's go leave this place better than we found it.
