Lindsey McCoy, Founder & CEO of Plaine Products (Interview 9/100)
Lindsey McCoy is the founder and CEO of Plaine Products, a company selling refillable hair and body products, is an example of a leader that took an idea, found a partner (her sister), and made it happen. This circular product business model seems like it’s from the future of sustainable products. It’s simple: buy a hair and/or body product from Plaine Products either online or in store, order another when you’re ready for a refill, rinse out the empty one and put it in the same box the new one came in, and then ship it back to be cleaned and reused again.
Like a lot of us, she believed growing up that if you wanted to do good in the world, you didn’t go into business. Instead you went into government or nonprofit. Luckily for her, and for all of us, she grew up Plainearned that you can do good with business these days. Like many of the leaders interviewed to date, the influence of the world around them is strong. Lindsey and her sister are the daughters of a small business owner. She married a man from the Bahamas and got an up close and personal look at what happens to all of the plastic trash in our oceans when she moved there. She studied political science and nonprofit management to better learn how to make an impact on the world around her. She took all of those experiences that shaped who she is as a person as the foundation for Plaine Products.
Her realistic approach to building a business on her own terms while determined to make a positive impact on the global community. A lot of people would advise a company to wait until they hit a revenue goal Plaine incorporating a donation component. Plain Products did that from the get go. A lot of people would advise to opt for a cheaper product. Plaine Products refused to skimp on quality. A lot of people would advise to seek out investors to increase capital. Again, Plaine Products did not. And it’s paying off. She walks us through the process of finding product and packaging manufacturers that were a good fit for the company, what it’s like to partner with your sister (a real yin & yang combo), business structure and management philosophies, the impact of building in donation components to the financial structure, embracing imperfections (a lesson I sorely need to learn), and more. There’s so much to learn and inspiration to gain from this interview with Lindsey and I can’t thank her enough for taking the time to talk with me.
Shout outs to:
Transcript
AM: Hey folks, thanks so much for coming to the Capitalism for Good Podcast. It's here where we'll focus on exploring how we both make and spend our dollars to benefit the greater good. Folks, today we have another female founder and CEO, Lindsey McCoy. She runs Plaine Products with her sister. It's a company that is making sustainable hair and body products. So for anyone who has been looking for and asking for some of those bathroom home products, body products, swaps, here you go.
This business model is really simple. You order or buy in the store their products. Use it up. They've got shampoo, conditioner, body wash, whatever you need. Check out their website. I'll put a link in the show notes so you can check them out. Use it up. When you're ready for a refill, you order the refill. They also have a subscription program. When that refill comes, you rinse out the old bottle and then put the cap back on and then put it into the box that the new one came in and ship it back to the company. Then they, in the warehouse right there, wash, clean out that bottle, and then reuse it for another shipment out. So it is this circular business model that is out there, reducing waste, helping lower the impact on the environment. I think it is so, so cool.
I loved talking to Lindsey so much. She reminded me a little bit of Greg Moore from Charlie Hustle when he was talking about all of the great things that Charlie Hustle is doing and his leadership philosophy. She's got a lot of parallels there to the things that she does. And he kept saying, we're just making t-shirts. At one point, she says, we're just selling shampoo. And you know what? This interview is proof that just like Greg Moore and Charlie Hustle is so much more than making t-shirts, Plaine Products is so much more than just selling shampoo. So check them out. Again, I'll put a link in the show notes to their website. They're another company that also from the get go built in this component to give back to charity, which is near and dear to my heart. She has a background in nonprofits, also government and political science, really speaking my language here. I just adored talking to her and I was so excited about it. And I am so excited to share this with you. So enjoy.
All right. Can you start with just kind of talking about yourself and your experience and then what led you to Plaine Products?
LM: Yeah. So when I was growing up way back in the 90s, if you wanted to do good in the world, you didn't go into business. You went into government or nonprofit or teaching. So I ended up majoring in political science, thought I was going to go into government, ended up realizing that government moved a little too slowly for my impatient nature, and went into nonprofits. So I have a master's in nonprofit management and did that for a while. My husband is from the Bahamas, so I got to move there, which was lovely, and I ended up doing environmental education work there.
Honestly, at the time, my only environmental credential was that I lived in Boulder, Colorado, and I had been to a zero-waste farmers market. I just had absorbed some stuff living there, and through that work in the Bahamas, I got to go to some absolutely beautiful remote places with scientists and I would find plastic there. Or I'd do beach cleanups with kids and I would find plastic there, or I'd end up at a dump and there's all the plastic coming into the water. And so I personally just was like, I knew every time I used something and threw it away, I knew right where it was going. And this was like 2015, it's right around the same time that they first started saying there could be more plastic than fish in the ocean by 2050. And I was like, I was living somewhere where I could actually see it. I mean, here in the States, we kind of are really good at making everything disappear. But I could see it there. And so I just personally was like, I just want to use less plastic.
I just want to throw less stuff away. I know where it's going. And I couldn't figure out a solution for all of those bottles in my shower. At the time, we also decided to move back to the US. So I actually called my sister and I said, hey, you know what? Now you can do good with business. And our dad had always had small businesses. I mean, it didn't seem crazy to start a business. So I was like, hey, do you want to like, we're very different. We kind of get to the same place, but we get there differently. So I knew that I would need her. So I asked her if she wanted to try it. And the idea was sort of, and then again, my age was like Netflix, how it used to be, where they would send you a DVD and you'd watch it and then you'd send the DVD back. And like that circular idea, I was like, I wonder if you could do that with bottles, you know? Now I'm like, oh yeah, the milkman.
But you know, I didn't have any context for that at the time. So we launched in 2017 with three products, shampoo, conditioner and body wash in one sentence. And we went with those because we were just looking for something that people were using every day and that there wasn't at the time a good solution to other than plastics. Shampoo bars at the time, they've come a long way. They're better now, but still don't quite work for my hair for whatever reason. So and we were interested in that circular packaging. So we sell products, it comes with a pump and then when you order a refill, it comes with a return label. You send the empty bottle back to us for free and we have a dishwasher on site and bottle washer and we wash the bottles and then dry the bottles and then get them refilled. And happily, there were people in the world that wanted to participate in that.
AM: That's so fascinating. Can you talk a little bit about how did you find the manufacturer for the product? Because like you talked about with the shampoo bars, like I also have some high maintenance hair and am constantly searching for what the best one is. What was that journey like?
LM: It was a journey. It was a journey for lots of reasons. It was a journey because I was unaware when we got started about how many crazy chemicals there are in most mainstream shampoos and it seemed nuts to me to create this whole environmentally friendly packaging, circular packet and then put water and a bunch of chemicals in it that would cause problems down the drain, that would cause problems on people's bodies. So that was a huge learning curve for me. I mean, I was learning and checking with people on the clean beauty space, zero waste space and they're like, oh, that's great, but God, don't put that in. Don't use that formula, don't use that ingredient.
It took a while to find a manufacturer that sort of aligned with us on ingredients and that my sister, she's the perfectionist, was happy with how the product worked. And then we had to convince them to let us reuse the bottles. So we actually had to go and meet with them and talk to their chemist on staff and talk about our process and get them comfortable with us sending these bottles down there. The good news is that once we've washed the bottles, they're actually usually cleaner than they are when they come from the manufacturer.
AM: That's wild, yeah. Yeah. Did you have kind of a similar journey when you were looking for the manufacturer for the actual bottle? Did you have to try many different ones?
LM: You know, we were too broke to have anything made for us. So it was just what can we find off the shelf that we can make work, really. That, you know, and sometimes it's good to be limited. So, you know, glass seemed scary in the shower. We actually did get some stainless steel, but turns out stainless steel doesn't always mean stainless steel. So we had some rust to do. So really, you know, aluminum was just sort of where we ended up and holds up great.
AM: That's amazing. I am so interested. I'm going to pivot us really quickly because I didn't realize this about you, that your background was in government and nonprofit, which is mine as well.
So my last full time job, I was managing medical research projects for the government, specifically in the DOD sphere. But for a nonprofit, I've been in nonprofits for my entire career because much like you, that's where my brain always went as far as like, if you want to do something that's meaningful and purpose driven, that is where you go. How has that transition been for you? And do you see a lot of parallels between the nonprofit world or?
LM: I mean, yes, definitely. I see a ton of parallels. You know, we really prioritize customer service, which I think served us well. And I think that's from years of donor maintenance. And, you know, I take very seriously that we're taking people's money. I want them to be happy. And I think that has served us really well. Also, you know, the transparency piece and all of that from the non-profit world bringing it over to business. We're a B Corp. We're members of 1% for the planet. Again, just because I was like, well, yeah, we're gonna do all this stuff anyway. We might as well be getting credit for it. And I was also looking, I mean, the B Corp is quite a rigorous framework. So I was looking to sort of pick up some of that business piece too that I didn't have from the non-profit world. But yeah, I mean, you know, non-profits are businesses.
I mean, just because, you know, they're called non-profits, you still, to me, the best non-profits are run like a business. So there wasn't a huge like, you know, I mean, a lot of the terminology, you know, the KPIs and the, you know, all that stuff I had to learn and figure out. But I mean, at the core, very similar to me. And I, you know, I probably run my business more like a non-profit than a business. But, you know, I'm okay with that.
AM: Yeah. I find that to be more and more true. It's something that I've preached for my entire career is that they're not really that different. And in fact, they're so, I mean, that's a big part of this entire Capitalism for Good project is like, there's so many ways that for-profits can do good and be purpose-driven. And it's not just the problem of a non-profit to fix it, like this other thing over there. Like there's so much that we can do.
LM: It shouldn't be. I mean, it shouldn't just be like, oh, well, we don't need to worry about it, because those guys over there are fixing it, or we'll just wait for the government to tell us we can't do. Like that to me is just crazy. I mean, when I started hearing about all the chemicals that are in a lot of mainstream products, and they were like, well, it's legal. And I'm like, but it's wrong. Like it's really wrong, like, you know. Yeah, the people are like, oh my God, you could do this so much cheaper if you just put water and chemicals in the bottle and use the plastic bottle. Like, God, you guys would be killing it. I'm like, not except not what we're going for. That's not what we're trying to do.
AM: Yeah. I also think sometimes they like not to use what you just said and make a pun out of it, but like it waters down the quality of your products sometimes. And if you're really going to like create a business on something that one is going to do something good for the environment, but also have a good product, like why not actually try to do the best?
LM: No, no doubt. I mean, I think for sure there was a lot of a stigma for a while around environmentally friendly products that like, oh, you could do good for the planet, but your hair is probably going to look like straw, and you're probably going to smell a little weird, and you're going to have to sacrifice some things in order to feel good. And I feel like that's also changed. I mean, I would put our stuff up against any salon product. It's aloe based, it's good, it's thick, it's nutrient dense, it's all those good things. And so I think a lot of that has changed.
I mean, there's a lot of, like you said, blurring between the profit and the non-profit, but I also think if you're going to have a business, the product has to stand up. It can't just be enough to ask people to do something good, to make a good choice for the planet, because they just won't stick around if it doesn't work.
AM: Totally. Have you come up against that a lot when you are pitching to retailers or salons? Oh, of course. Is that still the case?
LM: Yeah, but the great news is the product does work. So I'm always like, let me send you samples. Let me send you samples. Like, try it, try it. Like, don't listen to me. You know, I mean, obviously, not every product works for every single person, but for a lot of people. And I'm like, don't try it try it. You're almost like, try it. Let me send you something.
And the fact that it does work, you know, makes a huge difference. And then, you know, I think the fact that we do take our bottles back and actually wash and reuse them and like the footage online of us actually doing it, you know, also helps that people see, you know, there is something different. And then when we work with retailers as well, we offer some bulk and we take those containers back and wash and reuse them as well.
AM: That's amazing. When you were mentioning that you are part of the 1% for the planet, which is amazing and very admirable, is that something that you incorporated when you all first started or was that something that like came later once you got more stable? Like, what was that about?
LM: I'm such a nut. No, we've been doing it since the beginning. And in fact, again, you know, some guy honestly looked at our, he was like, well, donations seem a little high for a business your size, and I was like, man, back off. To me, so much of what we do requires an informed consumer. You know, if somebody isn't looking to reduce the plastic in their life, if they're not looking for clean ingredients, if they're not thinking about their waste footprint, what we're doing makes absolutely zero sense. So I think it is really important to support people who are doing that education, who are doing that research, who are helping tell that story. Because I sound very self-serving when I tell it. So I like other people out there helping create the education, and, you know, the internet is a crowded, busy place. So we do our best when people come looking for us, and it's just our job to help them find us.
Yeah. You know, us trying to get in front of the right people is very challenging. So, you know, we need people out there aware and thinking about it and looking for solutions and then finding us and getting super excited. So that's that's always kind of been my attitude towards why it's important to support nonprofits. I mean, because they do good work and it all plays together.
AM: Yeah. We talk a little bit more about, like, from the very beginning when you were trying to find those those people that are those purpose driven people that are looking to buy your products, like those ones that you know are the perfect fit to be your consumers. Like, how did you especially in the very beginning? Like, how did you find those folks in the very beginning?
LM: I think I mentioned early on that when we were getting started, I was in touch with a lot of people kind of in that clean beauty space, their way space. I mean, this was really, this is like 2016, 2017 before, luckily for me, influencers really blew up as a thing. And so I didn't, you know, I was just like, hey, will you try this? Hey, will you let me know what you think? Like, hey, if you like it, will you talk about it? Luckily, they were all excited to do it just because it was a cool, new, something different, and it was, you know, a solution to offer. And so we just greatly benefited from being a little ahead of the curve. You know, we could never have afforded to do today what we did as we were getting started. I mean, people were just incredibly generous with talking about us and talking about what we were doing and spreading the word.
We got lucky, and I think that's also the non-profit part, too. I mean, I'm always a big believer in partnerships and working together and a rising tide lifts all boats, so we work with other companies, sustainable companies and zero-waste companies and do a lot of cross promotion and that kind of stuff. And then we do still work with a lot of, I mean, now technically influencers, but people that we've been working with for years in that space.
AM: Yeah. Sometimes when I look at those internet, social media influencers, I think about those people that are just, if I'm in a parallel again to the non-profit world, like those people who are just your natural movers and takers, those people that are just your natural people that are going to be tied into your mission and that are going to talk to everyone about it and that are going to get people to come to your events. And like they're the people that make good board members and all of those kinds of things. It's just now they have a new platform to use.
LM: Yeah. I mean, we have definitely learned a lot along the way. I mean, just because somebody has a big platform, if they're not really aligned with us, it's not helpful. You know, like they're talking about it. And somebody's like, oh my god, I love your pants. Those shoes are so cute. Like, oh, look at you and blah, blah, blah. You know, we're like, okay, just the mark. So, you know, we are again, more and more careful about trying to make sure that the people that we work with, the people that they're talking to, or people who are interested in our message and our solution and what we're trying to say, because you kind of, as we were talking before, like, you know, if people aren't looking for that, they're like, you know, people are like, oh, what do you do? And I explain it. And sometimes people are like, oh my god, that's so cool. And then sometimes people are like, what? Like, why would you do that? Like, what? I don't understand. So you're looking for the people who get excited about it.
AM: Yeah. What advice do you have to people that are looking to, like, kind of change the minds or, like, overcome those obstacles as far as going back to what you said about people who are like, oh, just add some more water to your product. Oh, just do, you'll be so much more successful. You'll make so much more money if you just do this other thing, like, or maybe this is a different question. Are you in the business of changing people's minds? Or are you like, well, maybe this is not for you?
LM: You know, I mean, you fight the battles you can fight. There are some people whose minds were just not going to change. Yeah, for sure. I don't believe in, like, shaming people or making people feel bad. Like, I feel like that kind of shuts people down. So I try really hard. I feel like the environmental movement gets caught up sometimes and, like, things aren't perfect enough or fighting with themselves about what the best solution is. And, you know, I sort of see it as, like, there's a whole world of people who are selling chemicals in plastic bottles. And so if somebody buys our stuff, buys a shampoo bar, buy something else, like, I'm just happy that they're just trying something over on our side of the street.
So, you know, I don't see necessarily other sustainable businesses as competition in that way of, like, I'm unhappy, you know, I'm just happy that people are getting the awareness and thinking about their purchases a little bit more and stepping outside of what they've always done. Because there's, you know, a lot of companies who have spent a lot of money to convince everybody that everything should be disposable and everything should be cheap and everything should be easy. And so anytime we can just move anybody out of that space just a little bit, I think it's a win for everybody. And there are just some people that are just not ready for that. And there's nothing we can do about that. Except, you know, okay, well, when you're ready, you know, come back or, hey, maybe you're just ready to carry a reusable water bottle. Like, let's start there. Like, you know, like, let's start. Like, where can we start? Where can we find something? You know, because this is about your health. Like, stop refilling that skinny little plastic bottle that's just breaking down and putting plastic in your body. And so trying to meet people where they are, trying not to make people feel bad, trying to be open to somebody, if not, you know, buying something from us, buying something like what we're talking about is all a win.
AM: Yeah, I think about that a lot, especially as I'm looking for businesses and leaders that would be a good fit for this, is something that's so true to my heart, is the people who are, like you said, looking for other like-minded folks. Like, let's find the other people that are aligned and let's band together. Like, we're going to be stronger together. We're going to be able to do more if we are working together, versus viewing other people in the same field as your competition. I was just on the phone this morning with a woman who owns a zero-waste store outside of Detroit, and she was talking about potentially selling and what this process is and like how she felt out. And she was so dedicated to like, we're going to transition, we'll have a training period, I'll still be available. Like there's no, I want things to succeed even if I'm not, I'm not there and I'm not in the face of it and I'm not in charge of it anymore. And I wonder if your mentality, especially when you were talking about like collaboration and stuff, is that the same mentality that you have when you're mentoring other people, like I'm kind of going into more of the managerial side, like are you a little bit of the same mindset there?
LM: Yeah, I would say that I am. I mean, it's funny, I don't remember what it was for, but somebody asked me to put together like an organizational diagram, and it really ended up looking a lot more like a Venn diagram than like a traditional, like hierarchical, you know, I was like, oh, these, but then we worked together on this, and then these people, you know, like I, I, I'm very lucky. My first boss was this amazing woman who sort of let us try the things we wanted to try and grow in the directions we wanted to grow. And that worked for me. And so, you know, if anything, I think probably the one complaint about me as a manager is that maybe I'm not structured enough, but I'm like, oh, you want to try that? Sure, let's try that.
Like, yeah, let's, yeah, let's blur this line. Let's give this a try. And, you know, for some people who really like, really love a job description, I would probably be a very frustrating manager because I'm like, let's experiment with this. Let's try something different. But I am a big believer in, you know, you're going to do better in things that you want to be doing or that you're interested in doing, and you never get a better result by doing the same thing over and over and over and over again. I will also say, just kind of back to your earlier point, there are a lot of really amazing women in this space, and I think women tend to be more problem solvers.
Most of the interesting businesses that I come across, usually a woman's co-founder or a founder are involved, and those are businesses that are trying to do something, not just trying to sell something, and those are the businesses that interest me. And I also really just enjoy working with other women. I mean, there's just usually less ego in the room. Let's just figure this out. How can we get it done? How can we make the world a better place? Not like, I want to make sure that my name's on top, and you know, I joke, actually, sometimes. I'm like, you know, these guys, like they are talking about how they're saving the world. We're saving the world, we're da-da-da-da.
And we're always like, we're selling shampoo. Like, it'd be great if you tried it. Like, it'd be, you know, like, so I'm like, we probably as a whole could do a better job of self-promotion, but sometimes it also feels a little ridiculous, like some of the claims that some businesses make about their impact on the world.
Yeah, totally. I will also say, and maybe this is because I am also a woman in business, but sometimes when I see those types of claims, like, I'm so quick to be like, those are just words. Is that like, what do you have to back it up? I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so. And I think it's important to be very clear about what's going on and what you're doing. But, you know, it seems to, unfortunately, many cases serve them well.
AM: So, you know, you also, you brought up a good point about being a female CEO, being a woman in business and being surrounded by by other women. And one thing that always comes up when I'm talking to my network, especially when I'm telling them that I'm meeting with a woman CEO or a female founder or someone like that, they're always like, OK, I want to know what it's like to be in a male dominated field. Like, what is it like to be in the good old boys club? How do you navigate it? What advice do you have? Do you like, what's your experience been with that part of it?
LM: You know, again, we did we haven't gone for money. I did go to one kind of boot camp. And happily, there were some women there. And they were like, you don't need this money. Don't take this money. Don't take this money. You're doing fine. You know, that's where some guys were like, why are you giving away so much money? Like, why are you washing these bottles? You know, like that was their sort of advice. And so we've just opted out of a lot of that traditional stuff. You know, we haven't gone for huge chains.
Like, we're just kind of working with smaller zero waste stores and smaller chains. Like, we, you know, we weren't like, okay, Whole Foods or Target or nothing. Like, we sell our own stuff online. We do work with retailers, but we work with more independent ones. You know, it was never about, how do we blow up super quickly? It was like, let's just keep building a business. And so when you do things that way, you kind of stay out of a lot of those traditional frameworks. I mean, I have certainly talked to other women who have talked about how hard it is to raise money as a woman, to go the easy route, to meet with all those guys who, you know, are happy to hand money to another guy for an idea. But like, when you're like, look, no, this is working. They're like, hmm, is it? So, yeah, we've just been sort of doing our own thing. And, you know, it's been working out for us. And, you know, we're not huge, but we're a solid business, you know, that employs people and pays our bills. And so that's growing, which is great.
AM: Can you talk a little bit about that? I love it. And I especially want to talk to business leaders who've been able to build and scale in a way that's manageable without having those outside influences. It sounds like you've been able to really do things the way that you want to and the way that you intend to. Is it scaling? Or is that the perception and not the reality there?
LM: Well, you certainly, if you want to grow fast and growth is the goal, you need money. Just the reality of the situation. We did buy a building, but we got a conventional loan for that, and that was a big part of jumping up. So we're at about 2 million now in revenue. Small, but not tiny. I mean, it's a reasonable size business. Then I think right now we're just trying to figure out how big do we want to get? Do we want to expand? If we do, do we need to add on to the warehouse? How many products can we carry? Anytime you make a big jump, we went for the warehouse because we needed it, and then it was too much. It was more than we needed. We finally have caught up to that. That was a stressful two years. It's more than we need, but we got to get there. Now we're there. Now it's like, okay, do we take another jump? How long do we sit here, build up some reserves?
It's a little bit of patience, a little bit of trying not to get too far out in front of yourself, but then you do have to make those leaps in order to grow. And that does require money. I mean, there's no getting around it. It's just a question of where do you get that money from? How in control, is it someone that is now in control of you, or are you still in control of yourself? And the other reason I was always scared to take money is because I didn't want somebody saying to me, you've got to grow fast, you got to stop washing bottles, like this isn't making sense. I never wanted to be in that position. The other thing is, honestly, I have a kid, my sister has kids, most of our employees are women. We never, I work a lot but I like working. But we try not to be too crazy making. And I knew again, also, if we took money, that maybe my two week vacation that I take in the summer would not be super popular, or the travel that I like to do, or my sister. So we try and find some balance between work and life. And that is a lot easier to do when you're in charge than when somebody else is in charge.
AM: Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about what it's like to be in business with your sister? And I ask specifically because, again, you're speaking right to my heart. I moved to Louisville, Kentucky to be closer to my sister. We grew up in Kansas City. She moved out here, I don't know, 20 years ago or so. And I moved out here maybe five years ago. I don't know. Time is confusing these days. She probably around that same time started her own nonprofit because of my background. I was like, I'm here to help. What do you need? I'm on her board of directors. And, you know, there are some natural challenges. There are ways in which we obviously kind of communicate with this like shortcut because we've just known each other our entire lives. But there are also ways in which we are polar opposites in everything that we do. Like, what has your experience been like with that?
LM: Well, there's two things to that. One, we're not actually in the same place.
AM: Oh, okay.
LM: My sister, we sort of agreed early on, and we both knew, like we knew what each other was good at. You know, she is great at picking the products, make sure the products work, how things look, and then the hands on sort of packing and that piece and the shipping and all of that. And then I was, you know, the talking, the writing, the financials, the partnerships, the vision, the all the other stuff, the sales. So we were both pretty clear about what we were each gonna do. She's in Cincinnati, not too far away.
AM: Oh, okay, yeah.
LM: My Bahamian husband refused to move to Cincinnati. So I-
AM: Different world.
LM: Yeah, well, you just, you know, there's no ocean there. So I'm actually in Wilmington, North Carolina, on the coast.
AM: Okay.
LM: Which presents challenges. I mean, there are for sure days that I wish that I was in the warehouse. And there are days when it's probably great that I am not. And you know what, we're going to talk about this a little bit later. Let's take a little pause right now. But I will say that for the most part, I have complete faith in the decision she makes. She gives me the same latitude. We both know that we're going to screw up sometimes, and that's okay, because we've both done it several times. But I can't imagine the loneliness of starting a business or starting something without somebody else, because truly, people work for you and they can care, but it's not the same.
Nobody else is going to have an hour conversation with you about this one little thing that's going on, or what do we think about this, or should we, or shouldn't we do this, that. Nobody else has the patience and the interest. So to have somebody that cares as much as you do, that's as invested as you are, it's just different than employees. It's just different. We have amazing employees. Do not get me wrong. We are so lucky in the people that work for us, but it's just different. I cannot imagine not having her to have those conversations, or when I'm having a bad day, she's like, yeah, okay, it's going to be all right. When she's having a bad day, we take turns being the voice of sunshine, or reason, or whatever. Yeah, I can't imagine doing it, but we are definitely also a little bit of a yin and yang. I mean, I joke, I would have launched way too early with not a great product, with a label that looked like a kindergartner drew it. And she's like, I never would have launched. I still would be tweaking the logo, and the label, and all the things. So somewhere in the middle is usually a good spot.
AM: That is the perfect description of my sister and I. She, when she first started talking about the non-profit, she had already started her own private practice. She was an occupational therapist. She'd worked for all these other people. She had this idea for a non-profit. I said, hey, you should probably consider I'll help you put together a business plan. She called me the next day and was like, so I filled out paperwork, I already did this, I drew up Articles of Incorporation and blah, blah, and I was like, okay, I'm running behind you being like, what about a budget? What about a five-year plan? What about?
LM: Yes. My sister says that I am the gas and she is the break. But you got it, but you need both. Yes. I would say that we have a healthy respect for each other and each other's stress. I think we're also a little bit protective of each other too. I don't want to stress her out and she wants me to be happy. So there's that in it as well and it helps having each other.
AM: I love that so much. I could talk to you about that for hours. But I will move on. In talking about advice for other people that are looking to start up, whether it's a sustainable business, just a small business in general, something that's purpose-driven, we all make mistakes, we all have learned lessons the hard way. What advice do you have for other people, especially in terms of things that you've learned along the way?
LM: I always say, and again, this is my personality, but it is important to get something out there and let people interact and respond and then actually be willing to listen to them and change some things. Don't be so far down the line that you're like, oh, well, that's too late, we can't do anything about that. I'm very grateful that we started with Free Products, and we've really listened to people about what to add, and what's missing, and what do people want, and what can they and I find solutions for, and that's how we've decided to add products, which has worked pretty well. But we get people like, this isn't working, that's not working, what about this, what about that? It is really hard to not take all of that personally, and to actually hear it, and not just tell people why they're wrong. But they don't understand.
But it is important, and maybe that's that non-profit too piece of just having to listen to donors. But I do, I think it's really important to not go so far down the line of your idea or your business that you're so committed that you can't change anything, or you can't have feedback. I think it's important to stress test it to as much as you can. And data is great, but also with humans is important. And to persistence, man, I mean, that's the other thing. It's a fine line between persistence and madness probably. But certainly, we had product in stainless steel jars and they rusted. And they're probably a lot of very sane, smart people that would have given up at that point. And I was just too stubborn. I was like, no, we can make this work. You know, and that's again, a good, you know, it was a dark time. It was a good time to have a partner to work through all of that with.
But yeah, I mean, there are going to be bumps. There are going to be mistakes. There are going to be things that you do. There are going to be stuff that you screw up. And you just have to keep going.
AM: Yeah. I, first of all, again, you're speaking right to my heart. I earlier today was on the phone with someone and was like, I feel like a crazy person. I feel like I'm now at a point where I'm worried that I haven't been worried enough so far. And now I'm worried about not being worried. And am I crazy? Is this, why am I doing this? It's hard to get something off the ground. What am I doing? I've pivoted four times in the last year. What's happening? And she was like, but you have a plane. You know what you're doing. You're growing every day. You're like, you got this. And I was like, okay, but like, should that worry me? Like just, it's hard. And then I was like, okay, it's supposed to be hard. It's okay. We're fine.
LM: It's lonely. You know, there's nobody telling you good job. You know, you're doing the right thing, giving you the things to do. I mean, like, you know, you're making your own to do list and you're prioritizing. And that's hard.
AM: Yeah.
LM: Period. You know, I mean, there's a reason why a lot of people don't start their own businesses. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Totally. How do you also find, I keep going back to you coming from, like, the non-profit world in the parallels between startups is, like, in my experience, when you're in a non-profit like that, it is like you're wearing seven different hats, you've got the poverty mentality, you're doing all these different things, but that's also what it's like to have a startup. And like, how do you find that balance and the boundaries and all those things?
LM: It did not feel strange to me when it was just the two of us doing all the things. And as I think I alluded to earlier, I actually have some impatience with people who are like, no, no, this is my job. I'm like, well, your job is to move things forward. Just because this is your job does not mean that you can't do all that. To a point. I mean, there was a point at which it's unrealistic to ask people to do things, but I definitely look for people who are flexible and smart and willing to be a little loose.
So yeah, I mean, I think it is important that you can do all the things as you're getting started. And then it is equally important to realize what things you're not the best at and give them away as quickly as possible. So I am not great at social media. It is a very important job of having a small business. My team barely lets me post anymore because I am impatient because I will not always take the time to make it what they want. I don't have the keys to the kingdom anymore. I am not really allowed to just go willy-nilly on our socials, which is smart of them. So that was something that was hard for me to give away. It's our voice. It's how we communicate. But I also had to recognize that I am not great at it. So I did it. I did it for a while. I did it for the first two years and I barely do anymore. And now that's only exactly what they tell me to do. I usually screw it up. But yeah, I mean, I think you got to do all the things and then you got to figure out what things you're not good at or what things other people are better at doing. And then you have to actually let them do it.
AM: Yeah.
LM: How you would do it, which is hard.
AM: Yeah.
LM: But important.
AM: How have you gone about finding those right fits? Like you're not great at social media, so you need a social media expert or you're not great at XYZ. How do you, have you navigated?
LM: Again, I'm such a relational person. I just start asking people. We have an affiliate program and we've hired most of our social people out of that affiliate program. Just because we knew, oh, okay, well, they're already interested. They were interested enough to become an affiliate. They like social media. They're already doing it. So we've done that that way. You know, most of the other people that are working for us now were connected to somehow. You know, somebody knew somebody and I was looking for something and I started asking around. And there have been some times when we've just hired some extra, you know, like an agency here or there but it's usually short term and to fix something specific. For the most part, it's, you know, just those connections and talking to people and kind of waiting for the right person or trying stuff out.
AM: Yeah, it's all about who you know. Yeah, it's all about your community.
LM: I don't like that part of it.
AM: Right.
LM: Which is nice of the affiliate stuff because it does at least feel like those people came to me and it's not just people that I knew. I don't like that part because again, my first boss is like don't just hire people like you because you'll want to do that and it's important not to do that. That was really good advice for me. So I do try and make sure that I'm like, okay, you're going to probably irritate me a little bit, but that's probably not the worst thing. You're deal-oriented and you're going to ask me questions that are going to drive me crazy, but we need somebody like you. So that's a good thing.
AM: Yeah. Sometimes I think that those people that get under our skin and are so different than us are the people that you're like, this is why we need you because I wouldn't have done this because I would have been like, no, we don't need to talk about this. We don't need to think about this.
LM: 100 percent. She's actually not with us anymore, but we had somebody who was like, you need a contractor employee manual. She's like, can I write it? I was like, oh my God, yeah, please. I've had it. Yeah. Policy and procedures, go for it. Yeah, I'll take that. I was like, I hate that. I mean, it's important to have it.
AM: Right. Yeah.
LM: Never going to find the time. It's always going to be on the list and I'm never going to do it.
Yeah. Another thing that I want to go back to, and I don't want to spend a ton of time on it because I always want to spend more time on the more positive things, but I do want to talk about the reality of the world that we live in, and especially with your background in political science and the government. Maybe I'm just making assumptions here that the past six months, 12 months has been extraordinarily difficult, but what has that been like being a manufacturer, a small business selling products? Has that affected you recently? What has that been like?
LM: I think we're all living in a lot of uncertainty and stress. We are lucky in that our manufacturers are in the US.
AM: Okay.
LM: That has reduced some of the stress for us. I mean, we literally were just now talking to somebody, you're like, you promised us bottles, like, but this price and what's it going to be? And there's no doubt that the world is topsy-turvy at the moment. I will say that doing something good is a source of comfort to me. Right now, in the midst of all of that, it gives me some sense of being able to do my part and do something while we wait out the chaos. So yeah, I mean, it's impossible. I mean, I'm not gonna say anything, anybody else. It's impossible to plan right now. It's impossible, I mean, all the things are volatile. So we're just trying to just keep on, keep it on as best we can and plan as best we can and know that just because we plan something doesn't mean that's how it's gonna work out. But like everybody else, I mean, just trying to do, we're trying to keep things as normal as possible and as even as possible as we move forward through this. And thus far, it seems like everything is kind of gonna come back, but who knows?
And that is what I see about being a small business is like we are still small enough to be flexible. So I'm a, and this is like where the persistence comes in and this is where the, you know, like we're if we have to change something, we'll change it. I mean, that's just, you know, we can as a small business and you have to be again willing to, to say, I mean, we just were like, what about class? Maybe we should rethink about it. Well, what about this? What about that?
What if, you know, I mean, we're kind of always like, well, could we do this? Could we do that? So I think that's an important part of not getting so tied to one thing that you can't think a little bit more flexibly and consider some different options instead of like, well that's it, you know? Because certainly I think that is what some people are trying to do right now is to just wear us all out and hope that we give up and go away. So I would much rather change some things than admit defeat at this point.
AM: Yeah, you know, I'm always noticing these like, through lines and similarities and themes between different leaders when I go through these interviews. And I don't know, a month or two ago, I interviewed Emma Grose, who's a co-founder of MABLE and HAY! Straws, they're two sustainable product brands. And I asked her a similar question and she was like, you know, if it's not this, it was going to be something else. There's always going to be something you just have to roll with it. And it was so calming to hear someone just be like, we just deal with it. That's what it is.
LM: Yeah, I actually was listening to a super interesting podcast the other day and it was saying that because there's so much information at our fingertips now, you can find the answer to any question that I think we feel like we should be more in control and we feel like we should always have the right answer because there's so much data out there. And in fact, there's so much less in our control right now. And you're never going to have the perfect answer. Nothing's ever going to be perfect. And so the ability to just, I mean, not to get all like whatever, but I feel like the work, that's turned 50, so I'm thinking about all this stuff. But I feel like the work of my 40s has just been like to try and kind of let go of perfection.
Like myself, the company, we're human. We make mistakes, that's okay. And that was a really hard thing for me as a business leader to be okay with my own. I was more forgiving of other people's mistakes than my own. Yeah. Was to come around to being like, I should have done that a year ago. I should have done this. Oh, why didn't I do that? Oh, why did I focus on this? I should have been focusing on that. What was I? Okay. I wouldn't fire anybody for this stuff, so why am I beating myself up over it?
AM: That's such a good perspective.
LM: Yeah. So I do think that's a great point. If it's not one thing, it's something else, and it's always something. So all you can do is make the best decision you can at the moment with the information you have and then trust yourself on that. And a year from now, it may look like, oh my God, what were we thinking? Of course we should have. But we didn't know that at the time.
AM: Yeah. You don't know what you don't know.
LM: You don't know what you don't know. Yeah. And often that's a lot of things.
AM: And kind of thinking about that in all of your experience, and all of your career, and all of your years, when you're looking out at the rest of the world, who, this is my last question that I have for everyone else is, who is another leader or business out there that you see doing things the right way that you think deserves a shout out? And it could be anyone from like an old boss, a co-worker, someone you're a customer of, absolutely anything, anyone.
LM: You know, I mean, I think, like I said earlier, there's just a lot of women just doing great stuff. I mean, I love what Lindsey's doing at Bite, the Everest ladies are doing cool stuff, Sarah at BlueLand. You know, I just, I love seeing other women solve problems and just do it their way and be really successful. So, I'm always cheering all of them on to Kate at Dip, it was a cool shampoo bar. Just, you know, and all of those women are probably better than me at being out there and having their personality also be a part of the brand. I mean, I do it a little bit, but it's not a huge part of what we do. But I respect all of those women for doing that a lot and just telling the story and not being, you know, not being afraid to get out there. And yeah, so that's I that wasn't an answer, but for sure, there's just a lot of great women out there doing stuff that I admire.
AM: Yeah, I love that so much. And, you know, it takes all of us in order to like make a change, make a difference.
LM: It totally does. I mean, you know, that's why I'm always like, it's a solution. It's not the solution. It's a solution. We're doing we're doing this. And is this going to solve the world? No, it's not going to solve all the plastic pollution problems. But it doesn't hurt. It's moving in the right direction. And it's going to take a whole lot of people doing stuff like that, you know, which is why we don't claim to be solving the problems of the world. You know, this is.
AM: But you're not contributing to them.
LM: We're not contributing to them. And we are offering, you know, something a little bit different. So, yeah, feel good about that.
AM: I love all of this so much. Thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate all of your insight, all of your experience and everything that you have to share. I wish you all the best. I just can't say thank you enough for all for this.
LM: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. You know, as we discussed earlier, it is hard to get people's attention in the world. So I'm always appreciative of a platform and time to have the conversation. And I've actually really, really enjoyed it.
AM: Folks, thanks so much for listening to the Capitalism for Good project. Just a quick reminder that this project is supported through patreon.com/capitalism for Good. There are weekly Between the Interviews episodes, early releases of interviews, March and other bonuses for those that subscribe through the Patreon. Support allows for this project to continue to move forward without the potential bias of traditional ads. Thank you so much for anyone that's already in that community and for anyone considering joining. As always, please let me know what you think. And also, if you have any recommendations for leaders that you see out there making a positive impact on their internal and external communities, I would love to shine a spotlight on your favorite folks.
Alright, that's enough. Let's go leave this place better than we found it.
